Research: Was there life on Mars?
I guess, Your Honor, Professor Cindy, you’ve got there who has told me I can call him Cindy. So we’re here today to talk about was their life on Mars. For as long as humanity has been watching the skies, we’ve been fascinated with the possibility that other worlds, much like Earth, might contain living organisms. While our visits to the moon taught us that it’s completely barren and uninhibited, other worlds within our solar system remain full of potential. Venus might have life in its cloud tops. Europa and Encladius might have life teeming in a subterranean subsurface ocean of liquid water. And even Titans, liquid hydrocarbon lakes provide a fascinating place to such exotic living organisms. By far, the most fascinating possibility is the red planet Mars. This smaller, colder, more distant cousin of planet Earth is most certainly has had a wet past where liquid water clearly flowed on its surface for more than a billion years. Circumstantial evidence has pointed to the plausibility of life on Mars, not only in the ancient past, but possibly still living and perhaps occasionally active even today. Some of the finest minds in the world have joined the most recent NASA Mars mission, the Perseverance Rover. To solve one of the biggest questions in the solar system was their life on Mars. Joining me on stage, we have Professor Cindy Yvgup there who is backed by the UK Space Agency. He’s on the Perseverance Rover Science team as a scientist and one of the mission strategic planners who is working with engineers and science team members in day-to-day Rover operations as they search for rocks to sample for future return to Earth at around 2030. Collecting these samples has seen critical to understand what the Martian environment and climate was like early on in Mars’s history and whether it was habitable for life. With one carefully chosen sample from Mars, we could discover that the history of life on Earth is not as unique in the universe as we might think. In this session, we’ll be discussing the science tech, climate change and also what we can learn from Mars. Welcome Cindy Yvgup. Thank you very much. Now, arguably the world has had a sudden awakening into remote working and working from home. As far as I’m aware, you’ve been remote working with Mars for many years now. How’s that going for you? I’ve been on the curiosity rover since 2012 and initially we’ll gather together for the first three months working together at the jet propulsion laboratory, but you can’t do that forever because the scientists on the team are spread across the world. They come from many different countries. We then dispersed and we work remotely and also with the new rover we work remotely because of the pandemic. Obviously, the hardest things, the engineering science, we’re always done at JPL and that’s been really challenging because the engineering side making sure the specifics of how we drive the rover, how we conduct the tests, how do we do the experiments, all the code writing everything. That’s pretty difficult to do it remotely from the thing. Most of the scientists are actually working remotely and we have multiple ways of communication. I mean, it’s well known fact that space is hard and it’s one thing putting a satellite in orbit. It’s another thing sending a rocket or a surveying mission further afield to another planet in our solar system. It’s a totally different challenge and actually landing and deploying a rover on the surface of Mars. I cannot imagine what the engineering team went through in February this year if anyone watched the landing what that was like. How was it for you all? That was pretty scary. They made it look easy, actually. But that’s amazing. The landing itself was amazing, but now what happens is just extraordinary because we’re on the surface of Mars. Imagine this is a surface of Mars we’ve driven to this location over here. A whole field of view is rocks and we’re trying to decide which rocks we’re going to investigate to reconstruct what the environment and Mars was like and which rocks we want to sample. Do we go that way? Do we go that way? Do we go that way? We’ve put a team of 400 scientists and 200 engineers in trying to make reach decisions on a day-to-day basis, basically, because we’re driving almost every day at the moment, trying to decide which decisions every day we’re making new decisions. You can’t pre-program that, et cetera. We don’t do things real time, obviously, because they’re time delay. We basically plan what’s going to happen on Mars the next day, we get the data back, and analyze that data and we plan what we want to do next. I love it. It takes about 11 minutes to get a signal back from Mars, but also 11 minutes to send a command. Where we’ll use to 4G internet and 5G onset here in the UK is a fast approaching. Can you imagine waiting 11 minutes for an email to return? That’s why we actually, basically, we spend a day deciding what we’re going to do, and then sequencing all the commands, checking them, et cetera. Then they’re uploaded to the link to the rover. The rover carries them out. We get data coming in, in-con coming in the next day. We look at that new data and then decide what we want to do next, but that requires a huge number of people. I mean, the team is huge, and the missions are expensive just because of the number of engineers and scientists involved in making those decisions. That’s not a sole decision. Tell us about more about the collaboration and innovation is one of the things that really drive science forward, hopefully, in this new era of technology. Before we go into the science of the mission, there was a really interesting link in geology that you made from the English channel and some findings that mapped to something on the surface of Mars. I think it’s really cool to hear about how you came to work on the Mars rover missions. Okay, so that’s, I’m a completely accidental planetary scientist. I never imagined I would be a planetary scientist. So I’m a tourist Earth geologist. I look at rocks on Earth, and what I do is I look at rocks, and I’m able to read them through my knowledge and reconstruct what the ancient landscape looked like. So for example, this image, this is one of the selfies that curiosity’s taken very recently. You see these beautiful rocks in the background. What I can do is I can look at features in those rock and paint a picture of what Mars was like, you know, three and a half billion years ago. So you see a very arid planet today, but actually the rocks in the foreground with the rover standing on actually represent an ancient lake environment. It was a wet and warm climate. Perhaps not quite as warm as London today, but certainly warmer than it is today. But that was all unknown to me. I’ve all knew about Mars at that time was that it was red. But what we’ve been doing together with a colleague of mine, Professor Tranny Collier at Imperial College is a geophysicist, and that’s collaboration came from different fields. And actually the best thing that happened to us, we both started in period at the same time, and we didn’t get any funding initially. Not being funded is the best thing that’s ever happened to me. You know, you think being funded would be the most best thing, but actually not being funded means that you go and chase new avenues. So we went completely in a new direction and decided that we wanted to understand what the shallow shelves, the ocean floors, the shallow ocean floors were like the seas. And we wrote a speculative grant proposal that got us funded to acquire the latest sonar equipment available. So we were the first group in the UK to have some of the highest resolution sonars available. But we didn’t know how to use these sonars. And of course we wanted to get a nice warm place, like the Red Sea. But we didn’t have to use the sonar, so we were going to test them in the English Channel. And in doing so, we actually discovered an amazing new landscape under the English Channel. It never, nobody knew what was under English Channel in terms of the landscapes and the geology. But the landscape was bizarre, and we didn’t know what to make of it. And for months, we were looking at this data, not being able to read it. And then I think I was in the library one day, flicking through a journal, scientific journal. I came across a picture, a picture from the surface of Mars. And it was astonishing because the features in the picture were exactly the same as we see in the English Channel. And these are things that are formed by huge floods. And there are places on Earth that you can see these things. But I didn’t know about those. So actually it was a picture of Mars that led us to interpret that the English Channel was actually formed by huge megaflux, and that actually created Britain as an island. So this whole story there. And then I got kind of got intrigued by Mars. And so it’s fascinating is how you can draw a line of what’s happening here on Earth. And many of you will be aware of like satellites for Earth observation, but there are limitations because you are not enabled to see under the ocean. So Sonor technology is a fantastic way to draw that line to something innovative for your approach to Mars now. And I’d love to spend some time now talking a bit about the science. And I’d just like to invite our audience at home, wherever you might be beaming in from, and also here in our room, to think about questions that you can ask Sonor Geef as well. So we’ll be coming to you as well for questions. So have a think about that. I guess the big question is how do we search for life on Mars? It’s a really big question. I don’t want to throw you in at the deep end. But yeah. So I think the key thing is, and I think probably the big discovery of the curiosity rover is that it’s discovered what we call ancient habitable environments. So we’re not looking for present day life. We don’t think that there’s present day life on Mars. It could be wrong, of course. But the Martian environment is so harsh that it seems unlikely. It’s been harsh for several billion years. We think it’s unlikely that microbial life is at the surface, maybe in the deep subsurface, but how do you access that? What we’re looking for is ancient life from a time that really, you know, about three and a half billion years, three point nine to three and a half billion years ago, that’s when life arose on Earth. And, you know, we have striking evidence on Earth in places like South Africa and Australia where we see evidence for microbial forms and microphotels, et cetera. And so we think that, you know, if life did arise on Mars, it would have been in parallel. And so the search is for that sort of microbial life. And the key to searching for that is finding the right rocks, basically. So it’s finding the right environments where life might have flourished in. And for me, and my expertise in these reconstructing environments, so what we think is we want, obviously, water environments with water, stable water, not highly energetic environments of quiet water environments. So for example, for astrobiologists, those are scientists who are interested in the science of biology, another lakes, ancient lakes, are the key places to go for, to search for because they’re quiet water environments, where if there was life living in the water environment, it would have got entombed in the rocks, but it’s a hard challenge. It is. And you’ve got a big job ahead of you. And hopefully the gains from the data coming back from Perseverance will give you lots of insights. And what have you been able to access so far by way of the data coming back from the Perseverance rover? We know what’s going on. It’s very early days in the mission. So we’ve only been there for a few months, and really much of the time has been spent in basically getting first unactivities for the instruments, make sure everything’s working, and then strategizing basically so prior to us landing. So on the mission, I have two roles. Firstly, I’m one of the scientists, but also I’m one of the 10 strategic planners for the mission. So that’s a strategic science planner. And what I do working with the project scientists is think about what the rover is going to be doing next. Obviously, we can’t have a random collection of 400 scientists randomly deciding. So what we do is we interface with the science team and the engineers and project management in planning out our strategy. And so one of the exercises we did prior to landing was think about, you know, depending on where we landed, what science would we do, where would we sample efficiently? Because the mission has a timeline. This mission is about getting samples back to Earth, and that has a specific timeline. It’s very sharp. And so we can’t kind of deal with what I do field work on Earth. I spend a lot of time sort of exploring and thinking about stuff and kind of working around, going in different directions. With Mars Rovers, you can’t do that because this mission is so expensive and both so many people and we’ve got this very dead at that timeline. Yeah, it’s really interesting because I guess that’s where some of the limitations of robotic exploration come. And whether the likes of Elon Musk and others come and actually put a footprint on Mars to, you know, build that human imprint, whether it’s for the science initially or if it’s robotic hybrid, people have talked about avatar technology. In your experience with the curiosity, Rover, the perseverance rover, and the upcoming exo Mars mission, which is landing next year, I believe on Mars, what are the current limitations to the robotic exploration? Because I think there might be some minds in our audience watching who might be trying to solve some of these challenges that are looking for ways of how they can get involved. That’s right. So I think as a field geologist, I find robots very limiting just because we can’t get everywhere. We are able to do amazing things, amazing science with these rovers, but you can’t go everywhere. There’s steep terrain, difficult terrain. Geologists like to climb up cliffs, to search out rocks, climb up steep cliffs, get into gullies, et cetera, and these things, a big rover, curiosity, perseverance, can’t get to. And obviously we’re limited by the rocks we can get to. I think what a rover might do in maybe three weeks, I could probably do in half an hour as a field geologist. And obviously I can make immediate cognitive decisions. So if I’m in the field, I’m surveying the scene, I can decide, well, I’m seeing this here, I can make a connection here, and I can go there, oh, I walk over there, oh, maybe that’s not quite right, I can immediately make a connection to something else. And we’re not quite there with rovers. Obviously there’s large numbers of people there, but it’s just quite hard. And I think even if the samples we return contain tantalizing evidence for life, it will be tantalizing because they’re just samples. And even with every discovery of the most ancient life on earth, people always dispute it. People say, well, maybe not, maybe not scientists, they don’t go rar rar when you have a new scientific discovery. They say, oh, I don’t think you’re right, actually, have you thought about this? And that’s what will happen, but that will seed future exploration. So I think almost certainly that humans will go to Mars. And on that is that going to help define some of the scientific findings faster, like intuitively being there, because I appreciate that NASA have also identified hematite on the surface of Mars. And now using AI technology, they can scan that from typography that they’ve already received. And that’s without sending humans and space is hard, you cannot risk human life for some of these fact finding missions. So we use a lot of AI techniques, etc. So for example, Rover driving, for example, we have Auto Nav that enables the rovers to actually divert around. So they take lots and lots of images as the rover is driving and autonomously will divert around obstacles like small boulders, etc. There are techniques for targeting to collect data. But I think we’ll require humans on Mars to actually explore, you know, rovers can only go a certain distance and a certain terrain area and collect samples from a certain thing. So I think in the end, we will need humans there to actually sample that large set. As someone who’s kind of admired a lot of like the rovers, when they retire rovers, it’s some of the saddest days for science. But it’s great to know that there is that presence for maybe reactivational recycling technology on the surface one day. And I guess CogEx really attracts a very diverse audience and they can be scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, innovators and artists alike. How do we get them all to collaborate on future missions, but also help us in our pathway to solving climate change here on Earth? Like are there lessons that we can transpose from your strategic work with NASA that helps to coordinate those big teams? Yeah, I think it’s been really interesting transition for me because prior to me being involved in NASA missions, I was really a very individual scientist and geologist and to be very individual. It’s you and a group of students who go up to the field and explore your certain area, be it, you know, I worked in the French Alps or in Egypt and you write up your own results and you don’t tend to have large teams working together, though that’s happening more and more. And it was just astonishing for me to work in a system where there were large numbers of people and you have to share your data, it’s not your data. That’s not easy actually coming in from a very individual science. Actually, you know, the papers I wrote were myself or my students, et cetera, now you write these papers with many, many authors, but they’re all bringing in different expertise, et cetera. And I think the key thing is that there’s a common vision and I think that’s the most important thing is that, you know, with curiosity, it was this desire to understand where the habitable environments was more suitable for life. You know, that’s the key discoveries that we’ve discovered that, that makes it worthwhile, spending all this money to explore Mars because we have ancient habitable environments. If we found a setting that seemed perfect for habitable environments and we hadn’t found those, then I would have said, well, actually, let’s go somewhere else. You know, we should go to other places too, but not just Mars, but let’s go somewhere else. But that discovery, that central goal meant that everybody is working towards that goal. And again, with perseverance, that central goal is we want to bring these samples back. And that’s going to be the biggest step change for scientists is having samples from Mars on Earth where we can, you know, zap them with all the technology we have to reconstruct, not only to search for life, but actually to reconstruct Mars’s early history. And that’s a history that we can’t decipher for Earth. It’s actually our history too, because the earliest history of Earth is lost to us because of tectonics. We will never, it’s like a medieval manuscript that the first pages have gone and we will never recover that. It’s so interesting because I think there’s a school of thought that some scientists outside of space agencies are pondering over whether Mars is our future or if it’s our past. Mars doesn’t have the same magnitude atmosphere as Earth does, which protects us from the upcoming cycle of solar activity, for instance. And I think that these samples are arguably going to be the most expensive, extra-terrestrial material. So ladies, forget diamonds, you might want a bit of a Mars. I don’t know. These samples are going to be spread around the world with all of the scientific teams. What will they be looking for when the samples return? And what kind of expertise thinking ahead to the future is are you going to be looking to need to decipher these samples? So that sample bit is where I handed over to somebody else, to other teams. That’s not my expertise. So my goal is to choose places where we can sample with the science team. And specifically my goal is to be able to say what was a landscape like on Mars for those samples? Because if we don’t know the context, in 10 years time we’ll have the samples, we might find something amazing and people will say, well, but did you get the context, did you get the context photos, etc. And if you say no, they won’t be able to put those into, you know, they won’t be able to fully understand them. It’s no good having discovering life if you don’t know where you found it, basically. So my goal is to provide that context and make sure we sample in the right places. And you know, we’ve only got something like 38 sample tubes. There’s a lot of rock on Mars. So when I do field work on Earth, for example, I did my PhD in the French Alps at the 3000 meters, had a rucksack, I would sample, I would, if I saw a nice interesting rock, I’d chuck it into my rucksack and carry on. If I found a more interesting rock, I would take out the sample, I had in my rucksack, throw it away and put the new one, the better one in. We can’t do that on Mars. Once we’ve selected the sample and put it into the tube, that’s it. So imagine the difficulty we have is that we’re going to be on this mission for, you know, the sample fetch rovers going to land in 2027. So we’ve got several years, five years of collecting samples, but we’ve only got 38 sample tubes. How do you choose? How do you select? That’s a very difficult task and that’s going to be intriguing. Then other people take over. And so what’s going to be happening is that new instrumentation is going to be developed and then 10 years is going to be amazing. The technical abilities, the tools we will have to be able to analyze, you know, tiny samples. The samples are going to be tiny amounts of rock, but we will learn not only about life, but actually many, many questions. Really, we have an understanding of Earth’s geological history right from its earliest formation, but we don’t know that for other planets. And as I’ve said, the earliest history of Earth is lost to us. We don’t know anything about it, but Mars has very, very abundant rocks from its earliest history. So actually analyzing the samples might tell us something about ourselves. It’s so interesting because, you know, we’re looking ahead at missions to Juneau and eventually maybe even the moons of Saturn where they are watery worlds. Very different to the science we’re doing on Mars and there are strategic decisions being made and not just in America with NASA, but also China have missions to Mars. India have also had missions to Mars. They’re all building a picture and a wider picture of the data we can pull together. I just, I want to prep the audience here watching us at home, but also here if you have any questions, I believe you can line up to ask your questions in person. I’m looking at Deborah. Is that right? While you’re thinking about that, I’m just going to reiterate the question for our audience at home. We have a question that there are missing parts of our planetary geology, which might have gone to parts of an offshot to parts of the moon and beyond. How do we find that and how do we assure against it, probably for future? Is it planetary protection you’re thinking about on the, just, yeah, so to help us understand. So first, yeah, so I mean, we understood quite a lot about Mars from actually bits of rock that have been flung of Mars on Earth. So we find Mars and nature. I think there’s about a hundred of those and we’ve learned lots about specific parts of Mars, not the diversity of Mars, but specific parts of Mars. I’m not sure we know if any samples of Earth have been shot off elsewhere. That’s outside my air of expertise, but I’m sure you know, people study the chemistry and the ice tip chemistry of rocks, lunar samples, et cetera. And so I’m sure there’s huge advances there in trying to understand that. I mean, for me, really, it’s why Mars is so exciting. It’s not just that Astrobiology question, it’s that that really early history. And for me, as a, so I must, what we call a sedimentologist, I look at sedimentary rocks and try and piece together what the landscape look like. And what’s been astonishing about Mars is just how Earth like it is in its ancient past. The rocks, I’ve just been up in Scotland, Northwest Highlands for a few days of fieldwork, some of the oldest rocks in Europe. You certainly the oldest rocks and we see evidence for lakes and rivers, et cetera, but these rocks look exactly like the ones curiosity is seen on Mars. And for me, it’s a striking moment. I was sitting there, you know, only yesterday. I got the sweeper back this morning, but I was on the shore yesterday looking at these rocks that wondering, yeah, it’s extraordinary. Those are, there is a one billion years old, but the rocks and Mars are three and a half billion years old. So it’s a deep time aspect that’s fascinating. Do you have a follow-up? Okay, no, fantastic. Do you have any more questions from our audience? Okay, I’m going to remind everyone watching at home, I have an iPad, which is beaming me any questions that you might be thinking about. I guess the big question is that we’re all really here to ask us, is there life in the heart? I waited until towards the end to ask that question. I have no idea. Wait for 10 years. Gosh, you know, that’s a really, that’s a really difficult. We’re going to have, I think, we’re going to have to see chemical signatures of life in the samples we bring back. So we have curiosity has discovered organics in the samples. So we’ve drilled into these lake mudstones and we’ve discovered sort of moderately complex organic compounds. But those could be formed a biotically. I think what was astonishing about that was that we could actually, with a rover, detect organics in mudstones that were three and a half billion years ago, that was just astonishing to be able to do that. But they don’t mean life in itself. But I think we’ll need to have the samples back before we can actually make any definitive thing. And even the samples may not show evidence for life because we’re restricted as samples. And so I think it’s going to be a long journey. I don’t think it’s going to happen even by 2030. I’m not sure we’re going to be certain. We’re going to be carrying on asking this question. Our avatars are going to be asking these questions in 50 years time. I mean, I think that the avatar technology side of things is quite fascinating because you’re actually projecting a way to access samples without physically having to be there. And remember, humans aren’t built necessarily for spaceflight. We have astronauts on the International Space Station here in relative low-Earth orbit. But that doesn’t protect you from the radiation on the surface of the moon or Mars. And NASA are going back also with the Automist mission to the moon in the next few years. And then using that as a platform to go on to Mars. So one idea is actually that rather than putting humans on the Martian surface immediately, is to actually have astronauts in orbit around Mars operating rovers because then you won’t have that time. See, that’s the problem. That’s the big problem we have. We have to wait and uplink for a whole day before we can actually do things. So that’s one step and then we will go to the next step. And also getting those astronauts to Mars. When we’re in that close orbit, it’s a seven-month journey. But otherwise, it’s two years. So can you imagine humans traveling for two years to get to Mars? Or actually, probably in the way that Elon Musk has talked about those specific windows if that’s seven-month period of time. I’m looking back at our beautiful audience and down at my iPad. Do we have any more questions from our audience? We’ve got one here on the third row. Hi there. I guess we don’t really frame it as life on Mars, but we frame it as was their life elsewhere. And Mars being the key place using our Earth analogs. And the Earth analogs might not be the right one. But a big question for terrestrial geologists is the earliest life on Earth. And so that’s that big question. So I think it’s the most central question in some ways is did life arise elsewhere? Both scientifically, but also philosophically. Or are we allowed? It really helps. It makes you think, when I look at these images, and it’s funny, sometimes I might be the first person seeing those images of landscape on Mars because we get, we see that I’m awake earlier than in California, basically. And you see this lifeless landscape there. But actually, it looks really Earth-like. It looks like a desert in Nevada or in Egypt or somewhere like that. But who knows what those rocks tantalizing rocks hold? And we’re so limited as to what we can look at, what we can sample. It’s so limiting given this whole plan to cover in rocks. But you know, that’s the extraordinary thing. Yeah, James, you ask a very interesting question, particularly because also tomorrow on the planet stage in the afternoon, we have Christopher Mason, who has worked on the NASA Twin Study, who I’m actually going to be chatting to about the genomics. And his 500-year plan of evolving humans and life to exist in other places in our solar system and beyond. So stay tuned for that. So I think he’s got some really insights based on technology today and how that will scale for a human, wide or life-wide presence on another planet. We’ve had a question via the audience at home. So thank you very much. This question comes from Jenny Zhao, who’s asked, sorry, it’s Christopher Lomis’ asked, what is the most exciting discovery you expect from the Great Vam? From the perseverance rover. I think if I go back to curiosity, the most exciting discovery was the evidence for long lift legs. I mean, that was completely new. Prior to that, you know, with the moor rovers, we had evidence for small amounts of water, but not abundant water. And whilst we, you know, when you look at orbital images of Mars, they suggest abundant water. It’s not absolutely clear. And then with curiosity, very early in the mission, we discovered these pebbles, but several centimeters in diameter that were beautifully rounded. And that can only happen through water action. So it was clear evidence for running water. And that was just an astonishing discovery. With perseverance, obviously, the next step is to really… We have a very clear picture of what we think this crater that perseverance has landed in. Jezero crater looked like, but it’s really testing that and testing the longevity of the water. Jezero crater is much older than the Gail crater where curiosity landed. So we’re, you know, the edges of, you know, really early Mars. And so, you know, we’re looking at two different time spots, basically. And, you know, it’s like exploring Earth, or it was like 200 years ago. It’s like early stages of geology on Earth, where we knew very little and, you know, geologists were going out piecing together earlier straight. That’s from the stage where it was very exciting. It is exciting because you’re kind of in essence looking at a time stamp of something that we can’t access here on Earth. That’s right. And I guess this is as a geologist for first and foremost, that’s your passion. I guess one of the questions that I would love to ask you is like, if you could travel anywhere on Earth or our known solar system to assess rocks for the love of geology and planetary, you know, science going forward, where would it be and why? Always many places. I think I would love to get tightened, actually. Tied Yeah. Geomophologically, you know, we’ve not got a water cycle, we’ve got a completely different cycle, methane cycle. And, but it has extraordinary geomophology, extraordinary landscapes. We’ve got huge areas of desert dunes, we’ve got seas and lakes and rivers of methane. And just to be able to fly over that and walk in that landscape would just be extraordinary. That would be, yeah. Yeah, it’s fascinating, like looking at some of the science cases for going onto Titan and other parts of our sort of icy moons and even watery worlds. Like space agencies are already looking ahead at the technology that they need to get those hoppers and landing on water and moving surfaces. So if you’re interested, there’s loads of resources online. I’m thinking specifically for the NASA’s work that they’ve done, but I’m sure we have lots of other space agencies around the world that are also looking ahead. I would just love to say thank you to Professor Cindy Gupta for your time and hearing from you about working across all of the rover’s curiosity, Perseverance, and soon exo Mars, fingers crossed. I think I last saw the exo Mars rover in the clean room before it was shipped to France on its last leg before it now goes into the rocket getting ready for launch. Thank you so much. And if anyone here is interested in a career in planetary science or geology, what can they do and where should they go as any final comments from yourself? Oh, just go and find an expert and speak to them. That’s how I got into geology. I wrote to I randomly wrote to a famous professor and he said come and see my lab and that’s how I got into geology. That’s if you don’t seek out, you won’t get. Professor Gupta, that’s going to complete on a thank you to our audience here and thank you to our audience online. We’re going to wrap this session down. I’m going to say thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. That was absolutely awesome. As someone that doesn’t know much about Mars, I think the way you to broke it down and translated that was incredible. So can we just give them another round of approvals would be so awesome. So our next session is in about 20 minutes and it’s going to be all about psychedelics. So another epic and interesting panel, please do come with your questions and also because it is our last session, if you DC someone out in a networking booth, bring them along, tell them to join you and let’s make this last one a great one. Okay, see you in 20. Bye.