StartUp to IPO: The ethical mission of our startups

So how does your Monday morning going? We had a very interesting first speech and the second one is going to be hopefully as interesting. We’re just going to make sure that your Monday is going to be super enthusiastic and full of energy. So we’re just putting a lot of things, including a secret bar of chocolate that you will know what I’m talking about when our speakers are going to be on board. Beyond that, I’m also super excited to introduce you to the moderator of this panel because Jenik Leman is a super interesting journalist. I had a pleasure following her in some different documentary that she made, but now she has also a new feature that is going to be even for me more interesting that reading her book that is sex robots and vegan meat. That is something that also somehow is in line with what she’s going to discuss and that is the ethical mission of our startup. And then we can try to understand exactly how she wants to achieve that. I’m super excited. Hopefully if you guys are also the same way excited, just make sure that you go on social media, try to use the hashtag cougars 2021. But also give a shout to our sponsors accenture BT quantum black and visa and make sure that you spread the word. So without further ado, I would like to welcome Jenny and the stages yours. Thank you so much, Armad. And welcome to the stage. We have a panel of sustainability focused entrepreneurs here for you today to look into how startups and consumers can make better informed choices, balancing ethics and sustainability. We’ve got Isabel A. God, who is the co founder and co designer at last object in 2016. Isabel graduated from the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts in architecture design and conservation. And she’s interested in waste reduction and methods to reuse and recycle. It’s been an ongoing journey for her, she says. And also joining us is Brent Ben Greensmith who may have the coolest job title in the world. Let me get this straight here. He is officially Lord chocolate lonely the third UK and island country manager of Tony’s chocolate only. And if you don’t know what Tony Tony’s chocolate only is, you should find out it’s mission is to make chocolate free of child labor and slavery. Not just their chocolate but all chocolate worldwide and they describe themselves as an impact company that makes chocolate then started his career in food and drink over 20 years ago. He’s worked at innocent drinks. He’s worked at Propocorn and he’s been working at Tony since September 2018 as employee number one and is responsible for the UK and Ireland. So welcome to you both. And perhaps we should begin with just getting you both to outline what your what your company does Tony tell us about Tony’s chocolate lonely. Hi, yes, so yeah, I’m Ben and I work for Tony’s chocolate only and we do have a very serious mission. So while I have a the best job title in the world. As Jenny says, we want to make chocolate free of slavery and child labor and not just our chocolate but all chocolate worldwide. So what’s he talking about right because this is chocolate and this is 2021 but I don’t know how much you know about chocolate. But and where it comes from but cocoa grows on trees around the equator and two thirds of the world’s chocolate actually comes from two countries, Ghana and the Ivory Coast in West Africa. And there are a handful of chocolate companies so the big chocolate companies Mars and S. Leimon, Dilees, Hershey, Ferreiro and then the chocolate producers Barry, Calabar and Cargill and they control about 95% of all of the cocoa that is bought and sold. So in our eyes, this is where the problems basically start. These companies pay as little as possible so they can make as much money as possible and that leads to big structural problems and the route. The problem in West Africa is poverty and because the farmers, you got about two and a half million farmers out there mostly mom’s dad’s grandparents, small holder farms, a couple of football pitches big but because they’re paid so little. They live in poverty that have to use kids on their farms and so today there are 1.6 million kids of whom 90% are working illegally on these cocoa farms and then in the worst instance you’ve got a minimum of about 30,000 to a sold and traffic to hell does modern day slaves. And this has been going on for decades and Tony’s we exist to raise awareness of the issue, so I’m doing with you guys now and ultimately show that there’s a different way to make delicious tasting chocolate that doesn’t involve exploitation. And that’s what we’ve been doing now for 15 years and we are the number one chocolate company in Holland. We launched in the UK about two years ago and we want to grow so much and drive so much awareness and help as many farmers as possible so that we can together change the chocolate industry for the better. Excellent stuff. So Isabel, tell us about lost object. Yes, amazing story. Then well that’s a really good way of like kind of framing the whole thing and we’re very much into the same one to create awareness and also drive our business in a positive and sustainable way. We have found the last object on the mission to eliminate the need for single use items, so Qtips, tissues, we are like the biggest I think the biggest design and problem we want to solve is the toilet paper like we’re really aiming for the high but let’s start with some of the other products first. So we started the whole company creating this reusable Qtip and this is simply just a Qtip that looks like a Qtip. It feels like a Qtip but when you use it you wash it and then you just use it again and again and again and this is the base for all our products. Our products are for example the tissue so it’s a tissue box. It has a functional and the look like a normal tissue but it has and reusable tissues that you can use and we use and wash and we use. So we simply eliminate this habit that we have of using all of these different products and discarding them and using them and discarding them because in the long run this little habit actually amounts to a lot of waste. So that’s our mission and we just keep making new products, rounds, anything that you use and discard. Both of you have a very very strong design aesthetic in your product. How important is that of making things that are kind of visually striking because it seems to me that you are almost smuggling your ethical mission in alongside a really attractive product that people care about. So then maybe if I could go to you first about your packaging and all of the rest of it, how much how much thought has got into gone into all of that. Well, I mean it is the total opposite when you look at a bar of of of Tony’s it doesn’t you know you don’t. The first thing you see is just fun vibrant packaging so it is really important but it’s a really interesting story to how Tony started because I call it the story of the accidental chocolate bar 15 years ago, three Dutch journalists in Holland in the Netherlands were making a food program on TV. And they uncovered it was called it’s called curing the answer van Vader which means food on wrapped or food uncovered and they look at brand claims marketing claims food supply chains. And one of these journalists was a chap called turn turn van the Kirk and which basically means Tony of the kitchen. And he basically turns I think page eight on a in a newspaper and he found that there was still this problem about two million kids working illegally on cocoa farms in West Africa and high instances of slavery and he was like this is this nuts right. So he basically they as part of this TV program they decided to to to take a stand and Tony basically really long story short ended up eating a load of chocolate from the big chocolate companies for this TV program. He filmed himself eating it he was pretty sure that there was some former slavery and child labor in the valley chain and then he hired a lawyer to prosecute himself for crimes against cocoa and he basically went out to West Africa he found four boys who had been sold and trafficked as slaves and he got them to testify against him and. Through one of them back to to Amsterdam and prosecuted himself for crimes against humanity by basically knowingly financing slavery and child labor by eating cocoa and off the back of it he he didn’t go to jail here is but it’s too it went on for two years the judge said to him you look morally you you know you’ve got a point but I can’t draw a link between the cocoa that these boys have eaten and the cocoa that you. Sorry I’ve produced in the cocoa you’ve eaten but yeah you’ve you’ve got a point so Tony basically got a designer to make everything in in the Netherlands at the time 15 years ago was blue he got a designer to make this this bar this very same bar in bright red packaging and it was a conversation they had the designer did it as as as a as a as a bit of a mate. 15 minutes it took him and that is the packaging that we’ve used ever since and then. We changed the packaging depending on the recipe but all of them are bright impactful but in honesty it’s so important for us now but when we set out we never we never. Set out to create a multinational business it was at that stage that Tony decided that if I’m really going to change things the best way of doing it is is from the show there’s a different business model so this. Started as a PR stunt but it’s now morphed into the biggest chocolate brand in in Holland so it’s really important for us but it was accidental it was perfectly accidental and why chocolate lonely you have to explain that Tony yes Tony because turn the international translation is is Tony. And then lonely the lonely part comes from the lonely battle to read the coke industry of the inequality that still lights it to this day so that’s where the mouthful name that you would never give a brand if you’re creating it and that’s where it comes from. And isabel there’s a lot more intention behind the design of your products in there yes yes I think that and what we look at when we’re creating these products are really to make sure that sustainability doesn’t have to be boring it doesn’t have to itch it doesn’t have to be. In convenient it can actually match into a society that we’re in a busy one one that’s very on the go and so our all our color are very colorful and all our products are fun and easy and convenient to clean convenient to use and then they look and feel like the single use version that we are eliminating so that the switch from going from tissue practice tissue. Pack is easy because it feels like the same thing and the box looks like the same thing so you’re not in doubt of how do I use this you don’t take the cute to happen like well what do I turn it around do I it has to really look like single use but it’s not. And isabel do you think in terms of the pandemic in the way that we live now do you think that we’ve taken many steps backwards when it comes to sustainability. I think you can look at it at two points because what happens right now is of course and that we are a very wasteful society because of everything going on with the pandemic and all the restriction and all of the regulations that you have. But it’s also put a lot of and a lot of people are talking about it a lot of people are are changing a lot of people are actually going into this fight about single use and about trash and unnecessary waste and so I think that in the long run the pandemic is really good in this area and the short run it’s it’s not so fun so so but I believe there has been a shift I think I almost would say that there’s actually been a paradigm shift in people. Mindset and how that they look at their waste. Both of your companies are doing things that maybe governments should be doing in terms of tackling child labor you know making making it easier for for us to live more sustainable lives. So what extent do you think that businesses can can make a difference as opposed to governments and to what extent are you giving governments an easy time by by taking on a mission that should be a national mission or an international mission. Ben maybe I’ll start with you. We think it’s up to everyone to to change because you know come it’s not down to consumers or you know it’s not down to governments most of the power sits with the companies so. What we do at Tony’s is we put most we don’t we don’t spend on on typical marketing we don’t have the big budgets and it’s quite a complicated message and we lead with the with the mission so most of our effort and work goes into bringing consumers up to speed with what’s actually going on because we we actually believe that if consumers know that the favorite brands that they’re using are an eating and buying are not doing. Good stuff and in our case that’s in in cocoa and basically ignoring the problem of child labor and slavery and they can make an informed choice so most of our effort goes in there but we do also lean quite heavily on governments because. Legislation I think is is is is crucial and I think at the moment the legislation doesn’t go far enough I think companies companies are actively ignoring problems in their supply chain and what we want to do and we have a petition live on our website at the moment is push to to ensure that companies have to do the due diligence on their supply chain so they actively have to look for the problem. Now we we have never found any instances of slavery on our partner co-operatives but we actively look for it is if you don’t go looking for it you can’t solve it that last year we found about 300 instances of. Child work that we weren’t happy with but that’s important for us because whilst there 300 cases that we’d rather not find if you’re not looking for them you can’t find them you can’t solve them you can’t remediate them. Most companies are just turning the blind eye and the power sits. And then there’s firmly with those companies those big companies have a choice how much they pay for their cocoa last year the Ivorian government and the Ghanaian government got together and they agreed to put a levy a living income differential on the every ton of cocoa that’s basically sold of about $400. And over the last year is companies the big companies no matter what they say try and do everything to circumnavigate that additional payment and and really sadly now the price of cocoa due to demand but also people pushing their contracts a little bit further out to see what’s happening the actual price of cocoa has gone the other way and dropped by 25% and that’s that shocking because we saw this happen about four or five years ago and all it meant is that the farmers got a raw deal price of cocoa dropped by 36% the farmers basically saw 36% less price in the supermarkets didn’t get any cheaper for the consumers and it went to the big manufacturers in the middle and we don’t think that is right that was that took about four and a half billion out of farmers pockets. So it’s up to consumers we want consumers to be aware and I think consumers are more aware but it’s not just down to governments companies control how much they buy how much they sell for and their PNL so we think it’s unfair to put all the all the focus on the government it’s it’s it’s got to start with the companies. I imagine you agree with that as well. Definitely and like Ben said you know we all have to do ours we can’t just rely on governments to solve issues it’s it’s very much about the consumers knowing how what is actually going on what you can choose and what you can choose not to do but it’s also of course about you know getting them involved and the government and and and everybody to also understand what is happening and how can we together change this but we all have to be part of it it’s not it’s not one part it’s not not the private sector it’s also the private sector. And as about when when we look at sustainability as an idea it is very zeitgeisty it’s the sort of thing that many brands claim to be doing in in in in their marketing because they know it’s going to appeal to a certain kind of consumer I mean to what extent are you concerned about that as sort of hollow promises from other companies in in a similar space who who might not really have the same kind of mission that you do. I think yes green washing was probably the best term for this and sustainability is not like very it it is actually quite difficult to really understand you know it’s it it is not okay you use this material then it’s sustainable it’s very like how do you use it along with it hold well how will I dispose of it there’s so many questions so I understand why a lot of companies can can make promises that they can’t hold or that they don’t understand how it actually is produced and for example no thing like bamboo is just like it has such a good rep right now so people are using it wrongly and there are a lot of bamboo materials that are not sustainable but it’s very hard for the consumer to know and not know I think we’re going to see a lot of people looking into this I think that we were looking at the things that we will have more knowledge I have more knowledge now than I had five years ago just as a consumer also in other products that I don’t create and I think that is because people of the coming are aware that we don’t just believe what people say we actually try to investigate and I see our customers really asking a lot of questions on our materials and why we do and where we ship and how it’s packaged and I love that I love that actually people are starting to ask questions openly in forms openly on Instagram Facebook so so we can start the dialogue and so that we can explain why and the same thing should be with everybody else. And when it comes to people asking questions if you are running a business that makes explicit brand claims marketing claims about a kind of purity of intention you’re going to be open to a different kind of scrutiny you’re going to be held up to a different standard on you I mean tell us about that Ben because I know that there have been there have been headlines about about Tony’s chocolate only over the past year. Yeah so we we’re totally transparent always have been we publish absolutely everything we do each and every year in our fair report which which tells people the good the bad the money that we made where the money meant and the size of the problem in front of us. So earlier this year so one of the things we’ve we’ve done work with for a long time is we work with a company called Barry Calaba because Barry Calaba are the biggest chocolate produce in the world and they are part of the problem because they also have a big say on what happens in West Africa. Now we’ve been working with them for a long time because they effectively if we can’t demonstrate that we can work with them in a scalable way we can’t show the big chocolate companies that what we’re doing is scalable because I’ll say you’re always you’re doing what you’re doing can’t be scaled to the level that we need it but I mean what actually happened about probably about four or five months ago now an article came out that basically brought this to light which we’ve never hidden and basically criticized us for for basically working with Barry Calaba. So we you know it was like to be honest it was a bit of a shock to me that that made the paper because we’ve talked about it openly but you’ve got to accept that some people will always challenge and find fault and actively you know as I said we welcome that if we welcome the challenge because if you are going to and we do put ourselves out there and we say look look at what we do criticise us make us stronger but you’ve got to expect that challenge and you’ve got to you’ve got to take it as well and if there’s stuff that you can do for to learn from it then that’s got to be a good thing but yeah particularly in this instance it probably caught us a little bit of guard because for me personally if I’m totally honest it was a bit of a nothing story we got this dropped from a list that there was no accreditation behind but look honestly if it raises awareness of the fact it’s a bigger story right for me is this you’ve got a million 1.6 million kids working in West Africa illegally on cocoa farms that that is a story in itself and it totally missed that but if this article will raise awareness of that then hey that’s a good thing is about do you think that part of part of the package of being a company like this is is being being being being prepared to accept this different level of scrutiny and holding your hands up when you make mistakes yes and I also think that it’s the future of companies I don’t think that we’re I think we’re going to look at companies like we look at our two companies you know people are going to ask more questions and they want more transparency and it’s actually easier for us and well we’re quite a start up only being two years into this but being transparent from the very beginning is easier than for example getting transparency through this like it’s such a huge company and it’s in the same way for us as a city that would be our counter and you know and it’s that’s that is such a huge machine that you have to get transparency through that’s also harder I think they’re going to get there and I think that customers are going to demand it so where should just the this is what is going to be normal in terms of how you communicate your message effectively without alienating consumers of course it is it’s really vitally important to have a really good product the people you know the chocolate has to taste good the the cutips have to have to work and be and be attractive but how important is it to to to pay it to be doing things that are innovative to be doing something new to solve a problem is about maybe you could go first on that I think that it’s really really important that we go in and and that we make products and everything is very well thought through and that our materials are well thought through that are a design that all of the elements around the products really really work I think that is that’s everything actually because if if it doesn’t hold with it’s then don’t buy it you know we have to really create something that that has the message and and that also works yeah and Ben do you feel that the pressure to be innovative to have crazy wacky flavors how do you how do you communicate the message whilst making it a product that people are interested and engaged in in its own right yeah good question I think we for ourselves we have to be that bridge we have to go where the consumers are because that’s where the problem rises you know it’s the home of the big the big company so we whilst we do really innovate and we do have some crazy flavors so this this is white chocolate raspberry popping candy you know I’ll big big focus has to be on where consumers want to find and the kind of products that they’re looking for so at the moment that means we’re squarely in particularly in the UK you know heavily focused on the likes of Mars Nestle cabries because that’s probably where 78% of the of the UK volume is so we have to go after that but at the same time we do want to innovate and that you know the tweaks to the packaging and the recipes get people talking so it brings it brings consumers in it brings shoppers in but and this sometimes pains me to say if 89% of the people who buy Tony’s buy us because they love the chocolate and they lot or they love the packaging so only 11% are actually buying us because of our mission so but it doesn’t again it doesn’t really matter it probably be you know maybe we’d like it the other way around but actually if it if that product and that packaging and a little bit of innovation screams from the shelf enough to peak people’s interest and get them to pick up a bar and when they unwrap the bar they they read inside you know why we do what we do and then they might wonder why our bars are equally divided and that’s because it tells the story of the unequal nature of the industry if that gets them into the problem and then you know they can they can they can share the problem and they’ll talk about it with some friends and then that’s basically how we’ll change the industry so innovation is is important for us but we’re you know we’re probably trying to do is show that there’s a different way to make something that people love but Ben surely price point is a really big issue here because if you’re trying to take on Mars and Cadbury their products are much cheaper than yours you know in terms of a bar of your chocolate amazingly delicious as it is it it feels like a luxury item doesn’t it it’s not a sort of you know it’s not a Mars ball no and that’s because it’s a bloody chunky though so 180 grams so it is more expensive than than cabbres and Mars and Nestle it’s cheaper per gram and green and blacks and lint so it is it is that it is that bridge but and look cheap cheap chocolate is bad someone somewhere is paying the price for it and it’s not the manufacturer so unfortunately it’s the people further further down the value chain in this case out in West Africa so we do it does it makes it harder right you know I’d love to be able to do what we do and sell a bar of chocolate for two quid but the the the the math doesn’t work take a step back and you look at if you go online and look at Mondalees or Hershey’s if you look at the operating profit that these companies are making it’s not for five six percent you’re talking 16 to 24 percent and that that’s not right the money’s there it’s just going to the wrong place so recap the PNL’s do it slightly differently look we’re really fortunate I mean we don’t get everything right but we’re really fortunate we we started our business back to front right we we didn’t start with the goal of making money we started with the problem and then built our business model around it so it’s if I know it’s easy for me to say this and I might be coming across as a little bit naive but there is more than enough money it just needs to to be cut a little bit fairer and is that different for you as a bell because your product in a way you you know it being a more expensive than a box of reusable q tips that kind of adds to the repeat of it maybe that it feels like something that you will look after and use again and again and an object that you like rather than something that you want to throw away yes our price point is really really important and the goal or communication goal of being very precise with our wording and because it is so complex like what is sustainable what is not I think that’s so important because you get you have customers I you know that you have them in such a little span like why should this be not good like not everybody goes really into debt with it so I think that creating a really really good price point where you’re not too far away from the single use alternative and at like at a store price is really really important but we also need to design something that can be manufactured easily and that we can get a really high quality on so that it can withhold a lot of uses so that our mission is not scattered in the process of trying to meet in the public so it’s everything is a dance it’s trying to figure out you know how where can we put the how how where can we put the price where people want to buy it and want to make this change and also how how high can we go quality wise so that this product really makes a difference and then getting our message out very clearly like this you can use 1000 times it’s been tested and we know and I don’t know how many times you clean your ears but that’s probably a couple of years so I think that you know messages like this and also trying to understand the single use industry and being very very figuratively you know this is why it is so bad and because it’s not always you can’t really see it just oh I used a qtub today tomorrow yeah yeah but over a year that accumulates and that’s a lot lots of questions coming in from the floor the first one is for you Ben Tony’s is currently selling two elements the product recipe taste look feel and a moral message if Tony’s made chocolate bars that mirrored the chocolate bars from the biggest competitors that are morally questionable wouldn’t that make the message behind Tony’s pure and simpler for consumers yeah look it’s it’s a really great question and actually it’s something that we did do so a few at the the beginning of this year part part part part part part of the problem that we face is these big chocolate companies have been saying that they will read the slaver in child labor from the cocoa industry for for well over 20 years in fact 20 years ago this year they signed something called the Harkin Engle Protocol that they agreed a 10 year time frame to abolish it from their their value chains and that two decades on with no further along so actually what we did back in in January is we took four of people’s favorite bars and we basically mimicked them and we said look you’re saying it can’t be done it’s too complicated but here we’ve done it for you and we’ve done it using our five sourcing principles so that’s some that’s something that we did and we did a stunt and it got quite a lot of press and publicity and actually it got pulled off the shelves of one of our UK supermarkets and he was our partner because of pressure from the big guys who didn’t want to be associated with it and it worked for us and it created enough noise for us to again raise awareness of the issues so I mean that’s partly what we do do but we do need to do it in a way that works for Tony’s and our brand as well so yeah it’s really interesting it was one of the campaigns that we did and they were so popular those products and you can go online and Google them that we’ve actually now brought them out into the UK we’ve just had to change the packaging somewhat so they’re not quite as controversial as they as they were. Another question from LeFour here we need a new way of learning thinking working and connecting to build a new world and to create sustainable systems how do the speakers believe we can co create this alignment with purpose is about that’s a big question that’s kind of like what alternative to capitalism would you like to offer for fun? I know biggie there but what’s your take on that? Well I would say that I think that we really have to make a difference I think we all have to make a difference because it’s not about you know the few people that really changed around their lives and live very sustainably and they’re just going to you know save the world it’s that everybody is part of this your grandma your dad your parents your friends your dog you know everybody has to be part of this change and we have to all start looking at our lives our daily lives where we buy our chocolate getting you know just that knowledge of knowing that chocolate from her she’s maybe not and as sustainably made then you would think and so understanding just that all of the products that we take into our lives everything that we buy everything that we and throw out that that has a consequence and and we have to together figure out alternatives I were in the midst right now of creating alternatives to to items that some of them have never had alternatives we’ve just had these items for the last 50 years 100 years and we never thought to change them out because we have a lot of resources on the planet but now it’s only we don’t and and there are a lot of things that are changing and it has been for a while but people are starting to realize it so I think that the best way for us to co create a better life and a better more sustainable planet is that we all just do ours we’re starting at single use somebody else looking at the meat industry the chocolate you know we just all have to look and work at what we can. Ben there’s a question for you here the history of progress is a story of step by step progress when it comes to consumerism and societal changes why have Tony’s decided to take on so many issues at once well we haven’t actually we have a very singular single-minded mission which is to focus on slavery and child labor in West Africa and that’s the only reason that we exist and that kind of guides everything that we do so as long as there’s inequality slavery and child labor on cocoa farms we will keep going what we what we also do is we the stuff we we we limit our impact everywhere so we don’t use parmal because it’s not good we only use plastic we only use cocoa butter that cocoa butter is made in Abijang because it provides employment back again in in in in the ivory coast all these things that we do outside of that one singular mission we want to limit our impact but we are we have one aim in mind and that is to make all chocolate worldwide 100% slave free so it’s a it’s a big one but yeah we’re very single-minded we just try and not to do bad elsewhere as well but we don’t we tend not to talk about that stuff too much because otherwise it becomes a bit a bit confusing another question for you Ben very quickly what makes Tony’s chocolate only different from divine chocolate look I mean it’s different in a number of ways but diviner that one of the good guys they have just a slightly different business model so divine are part owned by the corrupts if and the farmers they work with they’re great we love them they should be in everyone’s baskets because they’re trying to do good stuff and we just have a slightly different business model because we believe that actually the way to inspire change is to show the big chocolate companies that there’s a model that they can copy so our solution has to be scalable which is why we work with Barry Calaba for example as I was talking about earlier because they are the biggest chocolate producer but we deviate from that slightly because all of our cocoa is separated throughout their value chain so it doesn’t get tainted with with with with other bits so diviner one of the good guys we just have a different business model and we want that business model to be copied by all of the big companies and it can be is the future of business for every business to have and articulate a purpose beyond making money is a bell I think that’s what we’re going to see yes I think that I think especially I think you see that more and more especially with new companies that you can’t just come in and be like I make sneakers you know they always have an edge we are we’re so many there’s so much competition that you have to like kind of make your own waters and I think that having a purpose is very strong I think that the new generation why I think they’re called I just read an article about them and they’re very purpose driven so everybody coming into consumerism is also there they’re going to be more there’s going to be a want to buy elements and get into a lifestyle into a company buy something from a company that has a purpose I think that that becomes stronger and stronger stronger with the new generation would you agree with that then that consumers want to be consuming from companies with a purpose yeah I do whether or not it’s going to happen fast enough I don’t know but I definitely think things are shifting there’s a big movement in the UK for B Corps which are businesses that have a legal responsibility and put as much focus on profit people and planet as they do profit and I actually saw some stats that said I think 76% of people in the UK thought the business should have a legal responsibility to protect the natural environment and 72% to protect the people and planet and look we see this as well we I’ve never had such a motivated team and that you know that is down to the fact that we’re trying to change the industry and it’s really motivating to think that you’re getting out of bed not just to make a load of faceless shareholders a load of money you genuinely want to want to change things but that I would say the caution the risk is to the greenwashing point that has to be authentic you have to be transparent you know there’s been an incident in the last week where you know company like Brewdog has through an open letter from employees you start to uncover things that actually maybe they’re not true to the word in terms of how they’re treating their people so if you’re doing it purpose cannot just be a buzz word I think that’s a bit our data and going back to like 2016 I think things are really shifting and if you want to attract the best talent and you want to grow faster becops are growing at 28 times the pace of the average business in the UK then I think you know you’ve got to be doing some good in the world and I really hope that things do continue to shift in that way because it is up to the role of businesses to help fantastic stuff well this has been really really insightful and I want to I’m sure I’m speaking on behalf of everyone and extending a warm virtual applause to Isabelle and Ben for their insights today thank you now the next session on the stage is at 4 p.m. UK time it is cannabis and sex overcoming barriers to build to be businesses that definitely sounds like one you don’t want to miss chocolate cannabis and sex we bring you everything here on this stage so we hope to see you later on this afternoon.

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